myLife email address

hexium Wrote:
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> @Shauntir - Here are a few examples of
> Universities who also utilize M$ languages in some
> of their courses (this is by no means an
> exhaustive list):
> Rodes University - C#
> University of Pretoria - C#
> University of Johannesburg - C#
> University of the Free State - C#
> Durban University of Technology - Visual Basic
> University of Fort Hare - Visual Basic, Visual
> C++
> Most of these Universities also teach Java and C++
> of course (and probably a few other languages as
> well)

Add to list for C#: DUT. My point is that most universities imho do not use M$ languages and prefer the open souce languages. I personally would not mind if they changed visual programming (COS 114) to C# instead of Delphi

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hexium
@malcolm - So, according to your link, the department can still make the software available for certain modules (should it be a requirement to complete those modules) but due to the additional administrative requirements, they no longer do it. I hope that wasn't your smoking gun because its pointing in the opposite direction. I would also like to see credible references on your other statement regarding the charity organization.

Err no it is not a smoking gun it is just an example of the type of thing this sort of deal effects.
Also it says exactly what it says I said and not the opposite, let me spell it out for you in short points so that you don't get confused.
1/ UNISA decides to no longer give out XP keys. (Or Vista for that matter)
2/ Microsoft and UNISA make an unrelated deal to force all there students to use a crappy Microsoft email system.
3/ (This has not yet happened but would not surprise me at all when it does) Decision (1) suddenly gets reversed.
This sort of thing happens all the time in the world of business especially when Microsoft is involved.

As for the charity organization you are welcome to catch up on the last 5 years of news yourself, I am certainly not going to dig up the millions of stories on it for you. The E-Mexico debacle is a good starting point though similar things have happened in many african states.
Usually you will see one heading stating that the bill gates charity made a big donation of "X" to government "Y" and a few months later a separate headline that large open source deal "Z" with government "Y" has fallen through. None of the "Credible(tm)" sources would have the guts to tie the two together into an easy to digest story for those who don't read between the lines.

A deal with Microsoft always has other strings attached, they do nothing which does not have huge benefit to them.
Whether it is related to forcing Vista sales and brainwashing another generation of graduates to use MS operating systems or whether it is a way to get UNISA to start teaching C# in place of Java, or all of the above and/or something else I have not yet thought of(Microsoft only SQL courses maybe) remains to be seen but there will be something, of that I have very little doubt.

You are welcome to continue to be naive for all I care though, I certainly don't have time to do research for someone else.

--
"Knowledge has much better uses than self-pity and superiority"

malcolm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > @malcolm - So, according to your link, the
> department can still make the software available
> for certain modules (should it be a requirement to
> complete those modules) but due to the additional
> administrative requirements, they no longer do it.
> I hope that wasn't your smoking gun because its
> pointing in the opposite direction. I would also
> like to see credible references on your other
> statement regarding the charity organization.
>
> Err no it is not a smoking gun it is just an
> example of the type of thing this sort of deal
> effects.
> Also it says exactly what it says I said and not
> the opposite, let me spell it out for you in short
> points so that you don't get confused.
> 1/ UNISA decides to no longer give out XP keys.
> (Or Vista for that matter)
> 2/ Microsoft and UNISA make an unrelated deal to
> force all there students to use a crappy Microsoft
> email system.
> 3/ (This has not yet happened but would not
> surprise me at all when it does) Decision (1)
> suddenly gets reversed.
> This sort of thing happens all the time in the
> world of business especially when Microsoft is
> involved.
>
> As for the charity organization you are welcome to
> catch up on the last 5 years of news yourself, I
> am certainly not going to dig up the millions of
> stories on it for you. The E-Mexico debacle is a
> good starting point though similar things have
> happened in many african states.
> Usually you will see one heading stating that the
> bill gates charity made a big donation of "X" to
> government "Y" and a few months later a separate
> headline that large open source deal "Z" with
> government "Y" has fallen through. None of the
> "Credible(tm)" sources would have the guts to tie
> the two together into an easy to digest story for
> those who don't read between the lines.
>
> A deal with Microsoft always has other strings
> attached, they do nothing which does not have huge
> benefit to them.
> Whether it is related to forcing Vista sales and
> brainwashing another generation of graduates to
> use MS operating systems or whether it is a way to
> get UNISA to start teaching C# in place of Java,
> or all of the above and/or something else I have
> not yet thought of(Microsoft only SQL courses
> maybe) remains to be seen but there will be
> something, of that I have very little doubt.
>
> You are welcome to continue to be naive for all I
> care though, I certainly don't have time to do
> research for someone else.

@melcolm – Dude, all I’m reading in your comments are a lot of maybes, could be’s and other conspiracy theories.

You can't even copy a name correctly from one post above so at this point I will consider your opinion null and void.

--
"Knowledge has much better uses than self-pity and superiority"

malcolm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can't even copy a name correctly from one post
> above so at this point I will consider your
> opinion null and void.

Yes, that's a brilliant excuse.

What do I need an excuse for?

I feel my point has been made adequately for those who have the intellect to copy and paste correctly.
I no longer care what you think so will not waste any further time on it.

Enjoy your naive life.

--
"Knowledge has much better uses than self-pity and superiority"

@malcolm - you're being a little harsh on hexium; perhaps give him the benefit of doubt?

@hexium - THere are no maybes or conspiracy theories, much evidence exists that supports
what malcolm says. Not "theories", but actual money-trails and voting subversion in
supposedly democratic processes. Search terms: "Baystar", "DIS29500". There is no reason
to believe that MS has suddenly changed their behaviour - they have a duty to their
stockholders to do everything they can to maintain their monopoly and kill off competition
as long as it's legal.

@malcolm - Repeatedly insulting people because of a difference of opinion speaks volumes about one's character.

@goose – Thanks. Do not get me wrong, I have no love for M$. They are infamous for their scare tactics and their methods of protecting investments affect us even on ground level. That said, you cannot single them out - many of these big companies have done things or are doing things that we don't particularly agree with.
Our friend has made several allegations against this institution (Unisa), M$, and even the Bill and Melinda gates foundation. Most of what he said is conjecture at best. Even the examples you gave cannot be used as a bases of proof. We may all have our suspicions and/or theories, but to try and sell them as anything but that, and then insult people because they do not agree with you is a bit much...

I do not work for Unisa and cannot claim to know what processes were followed or what decisions were taken for what reasons. I have however tried to make a positive contribution to this thread as I do have a bit of background.

I work for another tertiary institution and we are also going the M$ email route. This decision was ours to make. It wasn't forced upon us by M$. We investigated several in-house options, but these were simply too expensive – the problem wasn't the software, but the infrastructure and resource requirements. We then started looking at external providers of which Google was at the top of our list. We had already registered a domain with them but due to some integration issues we decided to also contact M$. They did not only have a similar offering (minus the issues), but the product was also tailored for educational institutions.

Going the M$ route has not affected/benefited our license agreements. Like many other companies, M$ supports an educational pricing model which we already make use of.

hexium Wrote:
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> Even the examples you
> gave cannot be used as a bases of proof. We may

Yes they can - the examples I gave (both of them) is "evidence", not "speculation".
Evidence is what is used as the basis of proof. I gave evidence. "Evidence" is actual
fact, not conjecture or lines of reasoning - evidence is plain fact - plain facts is
what I gave, both BayStar as well as DIS29500 are both facts, not proofs.

There are only five continents. There is only a single company I know of that has
been convicted of criminal charges on two continents. You are, of course, free to
show another company that has been convicted of criminal charges on two entire
continents (not just countries).

> Going the M$ route has not affected/benefited our
> license agreements. Like many other companies, M$
> supports an educational pricing model which we
> already make use of.

Because paying slightly less for proprietry software is cheaper than paying nothing
for free software? You seem to miss the fact that what we are complaining about is
what got MS convicted of criminal charges in the first place - two continents and
roughly 13 countries called this type of deal illegal. Thats the bone of contention.

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hexium
@malcolm - Repeatedly insulting people because of a difference of opinion speaks volumes about one's character.

I insulted you once, indirectly, for blatantly copying my name wrong from one post above, not because of your opinion. Personally I find it insulting that you can't be bothered to spell my name correctly and think that this speaks volumes about your character.

Calling you naive is hardly an insult but rather just fact.
You choose to disregard constant previous behavior of a company(and companies in general) in favor of the fact that there is no proof YET that they are doing it this time.
This is equivalent to being conned by the same person with the same con for the 500th time because you had no proof he was conning you this time YET and did not want to prejudice yourself against him based on the previous 499 times he conned you, it is also the very definition of the word naive.

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goose
@malcolm - you're being a little harsh on hexium; perhaps give him the benefit of doubt?

I guess calling him naive straight from the start might have been a bit hasty, but I really can't think of anything else to say about someone trying to claim that a deal like this will not have any impact on fees, without that person having being directly involved in the deal.
The millions of ways that this could filter into fees makes this almost look like the person making the statement is a shill for the company in question.
Never mind the tons of other negative implications that might exist outside of fees.

He has now admitted to aiding in a decision similar to this one though which makes me think that maybe I should have been more harsh
Either that or he was not actually involved in the decision and is now claiming to know things about it that he can't actually know for sure, which would be even worse

Quote
hexium
I have heard from a reliable source that the University gets lots of bounces on fake or incorrect/outdated student email addresses. Anybody who has to maintain a customer database knows that this is a universal problem.

This is a good enough reason for providing students with an email address which the University knows will not change.

Translation "Something is difficult for us so lets make it the customers problem."
This kind of logic really gives me the creeps by the way.
Should I have a special email address for every company I do business with now, just so that things can be easier for them?
Seems like a terrible reason to me.

--
"Knowledge has much better uses than self-pity and superiority"

@malcolm – It’s pretty easy to dissect what other people say. I could have made lots of waves about you still calling Bill Gates the CEO of M$ (BG isn’t the CEO of M$, Steve Balmer is, and has been for the past 8 years), or I could have ranted about you claiming there are “millions” of stories (can you really show me millions of individual stories? You probably meant to say “many”), but there were no need to do so because slips happen all the time and people like to make things sound dramatic – ie: I have a million things to do today.) Can you really claim in your last reply that I “blatantly” wrote “melcolm” (maybe you could have, if I had purposefully done so in every reply? But I didn’t).

People often spell my name differently due to their native tongue. That doesn’t mean I have to lambast them for it. I’m sure that you would not have made such a fuss if we were discussing another subject.

You said twice that you do not care what I think. The second time you even said “I no longer care what you think so will not waste any further time on it”. This is obviously a touchy subject, because you are still commenting. You need to look at how you treat other people when there is a difference of opinion - throughout this discussion you have been rude and abusive. Belittling people until they shut up is not the way to go.

@goose –Baystar isn’t a good example and you are trying to force my replies out of context. Malcolm weren’t particularly thrilled with my comment that the service was free and suggested that nothing good could come from an M$ relationship and that they would probably use strong-arm tactics to force the University in to all kinds of directions.

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malcolm
Sure no extra fees. Until the university starts being obliged to do other things such as offer microsoft courses and make them compulsory and the student then pays a fortune for those.

I wanted to know on what he based that statement. He then said that it was based on his analysis of the company (even suggested that the charity organization is a front for M$) and then gave a link which would indirectly proof his point regarding the strong-arming (“see here if you don’t believe me”) however, all that I could find was that providing the licenses was too much of a hassle and that was why the University was stopping it. This I indicated to him and also questioned his accusation regarding the Bill and Malinda Gates foundation (I may not have a lot of love for Bill when it comes to his ideas on free software, but he gets my thumbs up with his foundation).
Malcolm then insisted that the email is probably part of a bigger scheme where M$ wants to force the University back into giving away free XP/Vista licenses

Quote
malcolm
Err no it is not a smoking gun it is just an example of the type of thing this sort of deal effects.
Also it says exactly what it says I said and not the opposite, let me spell it out for you in short points so that you don't get confused.
1/ UNISA decides to no longer give out XP keys. (Or Vista for that matter)
2/ Microsoft and UNISA make an unrelated deal to force all there students to use a crappy Microsoft email system.
3/ (This has not yet happened but would not surprise me at all when it does) Decision (1) suddenly gets reversed.
This sort of thing happens all the time in the world of business especially when Microsoft is involved.

This is a theory, not a fact. He then once again insisted that the foundation was a front for M$ and then gave an excuse on my request for a credible reference :

Quote
malcolmn
None of the "Credible(tm)" sources would have the guts to tie the two together into an easy to digest story for those who don't read between the lines.

I then insisted that these were all just maybes, could be’s and other conspiracy theories (in context, the theories about the foundation and the University)
I should have asked you to review this earlier, because you have gone off into a different direction trying to get me to defend M$.

Quote
goose
Because paying slightly less for proprietry software is cheaper than paying nothing
for free software?

This statement is made far too easy. You know that there are a lot more at stake when picking software products especially in the enterprise environment.

Quote
goose
You seem to miss the fact that what we are complaining about is
what got MS convicted of criminal charges in the first place - two continents and
roughly 13 countries called this type of deal illegal. Thats the bone of contention.

What type of deal? What are you talking about? Providing educational pricing? Providing a free email service?

hexium Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
<snipped>
> What type of deal? What are you talking about?
> Providing educational pricing? Providing a free
> email service?

Abusing a monopoly position to futher a product in a different market.

Quote

or I could have ranted about you claiming there are "millions" of stories (can you really show me millions of individual stories? You probably meant to say "many

It is called exaggeration, you should not take everything you read so literally.

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People often spell my name differently due to their native tongue. That doesn't mean I have to lambast them for it. I'm sure that you would not have made such a fuss if we were discussing another subject.

When it is written right in front of them in a computer font(In other words not a reading error) you should do just that, not being someones native tongue is really no excuse in such a situation.
I would make just as large a "fuss" no matter what I were discussing, although in reality I made no fuss at all just one simple statement.

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You said twice that you do not care what I think. The second time you even said "I no longer care what you think so will not waste any further time on it". This is obviously a touchy subject, because you are still commenting.

The only reason I am still bothering to comment at this point is due to the fact that you keep attempting character assassinations on me, that and the fact that I care what other people think. I really don't give a rats arse at this point what you think though.

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You need to look at how you treat other people when there is a difference of opinion - throughout this discussion you have been rude and abusive. Belittling people until they shut up is not the way to go.

I called you naive because you are. I mentioned that copying my name wrong was a really stupid thing to do because it was.
If the tactic you are accusing me of was really what I did, I would be calling you stupid every second line and making lame jokes about your mother, while clearly I am doing neither. Perhaps you should be less touchy.

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@goose Baystar isn't a good example and you are trying to force my replies out of context.

Why is it not a good example? Seems a rather good example to me.

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and then gave a link which would indirectly proof his point regarding the strong-arming ("see here if you don't believe me"

Wrong, you are doing exactly what you try to accuse goose of doing totally mis quoting what I have said.
Actually I mentioned that UNISA had recently stopped giving out XP because it is interesting regarding the subject on hand.
I mentioned that it might be related(It might also not) and would therefore be an example of one possible negative way in which this may filter into the student fees.(Of many). I then stated that it would not surprise me if this happened.(This is what is called an opinion) Finally I gave a link to prove that what I was stated as a fact(UNISA no longer giving out XP) was a fact rather then some arb junk I just made up.(Seemingly this is a bad thing to do now I should rather just make baseless statements?)

Perhaps English is not your first language and you have misinterpreted some of what I have said rather then deliberately chosen to change it, in this case perhaps goose is right and I should have been a bit more lenient.

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This is a theory, not a fact.

No shit.

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He then once again insisted that the foundation was a front for M$ and then gave an excuse on my request for a credible reference

I stated that the foundation does things that benefit Microsoft, I certainly did not state that it does not do things of its own as well or even that this is its primary function.
Again this really is a fact many of the foundations donations consist of Microsoft software for example which happen to go to people who were about to buy non Microsoft software.... That you can't be bothered to keep up on events yourself(Outside of watching SABC news and reading CNN) really is not my problem, I am rather busy and don't have endless hours to trawl the Internet at your request.

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This statement is made far too easy. You know that there are a lot more at stake when picking software products especially in the enterprise environment.

Yet you happily make the statement that this deal will not negatively affect student fees without considering the myriad of possible ways in which it could do just that, and then act all offended and abused when someone mentions that you are overlooking all these possibilities.

--
"Knowledge has much better uses than self-pity and superiority"

@malcolm – You're not helping your case.