How to lure experienced programmers...

Hi all

I’m looking for advice... the bulk of our work is in Siebel (a COTS CRM) consulting. It’s technical, but less coding. More learning the ins and outs of the product and business. (configuration, integration, work flows etc) It’s challenging and rewarding. We find that experienced programmers tend to do very well in these positions though.

What do you think the best way to pitch a position like this to experienced programmers is? It’s a bit of a shift from coding all day, but I’m hoping to identify elements that are appealing. What would tempt you to switch from coding all day?

Thanks
Michael

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

Are you not looking for Analyst programmers? or purely just Freshly produced Informatics graduates that you can put through a Siebel-intensive Level 7 Qualification Skills Development programme?

What do you mean by analyst programmer?

We do hire graduates fresh from varsity. (That's one of the positions we have available now) We're pretty picky about who we take on, and they're expected to learn on the job (with mentoring etc). Formal training only happens after a year. It means they're only billable later, but we have employees that actually know what they're doing as opposed to only on paper.

Seperate from that is taking on experienced programmers who already have the IT fundamentals, can learn a lot quicker and are productive much sooner. The issue there is that most programmers want to code all day, and when they see the position doesn't have programmer/developer or Java/C# in the title they arent interested. Siebel development is challenging and interesting, I just need to find a way to communicate that. I assume if I can show that Siebel development elements include those that programmers find enjoyable (outside of 24/7 coding), programmers would be more willing to look into applying.

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

Analyst Programmers will be your Head Programmers that are involved in Requirements gathering stages of your SDLC, and all such stages. They're types of people who're now sick of 24/7 programming and want to move into Analysis/design etc job roles. I suppose you are in the lookout for those else you will be in for a shock.

Anyway, good luck with your hunt.

*Just a hint*
according to the budget speech, a lot of money will be put into job creation by subsidizing your employee costs through tax-rebates. [don't just jump into this one]
The same is also done via 'Learnerships' - tax rebate twice for each learner you put into a learnership.

The bottom line of course will be your BEE scorecard.
They are cracking the whip, it's only a matter of time till all businesses feel the pinch.

Thanks. The response from the JUG mailing list and this site make me think I'll need all the luck I can get

Is that the proposed youth wage subsidy you're talking about?

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

yeah, that's the one.
But due to infantry stage, i'd tread carefully there.

I'm not sure how attractive it will ever be to a small IT company. I'd prefer to see better educated people coming through. If a person has barely passed their matric, I'm not going to take them on. Subsidy or not.

I haven't taken a good look at the proposed changes, so I may be talking rubbish.

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

Hello michaelw13

I haven't been on this forum for a while but was interested to find this thread. I can quite understand what you are getting at. I have been in Oracle ERP for 12 years - now in SAP and doing much of what you describe - I don't do much coding but still get as much of a kick out of configuring, constructing workflows and building integration systems on prebuilt software. My colleague and I were lamenting the fact that not too many youngsters are entering the Oracle and SAP folds anymore and we can't figure it out either. (sorry – not too familiar with the Siebel world)

We just had someone turn our company down for an entry level SAP position for a job with a company doing bespoke systems. His concerns were job security. That just makes me laugh out loud. Oracle and SAP consultants get so much money who needs job security. If you don't rush off and spend your first pay check on a down payment for a BMW and penthouse - you can make the money go really far - far enough to buy yourself independence and selectivity. I work when I want to. I wouldn't live any other way.

But how do you sell this a pure coder? Mmmm...I’ll have to give this some thought.

Hey MicheleC

"His concerns were job security." - I'd say there's even more security in the SAP/Oracle/Siebel world. There are so many Java/.NET programmers available that so excel you've got to be well above average, and simply being a great coder is not good enough. In the Siebel world we've got an acute shortage, so even average consultants won't want for work.

I had some suggestions from the Java crowd of looking for people who are in the JCAPS, BI space. Might be worth a look.

I'm also hoping to do a 'day in the life of a Sieble developer' video to show graduates what's actually involved, and try get across that it's an exciting and fulfilling job.

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

Michaelw13 that will be a great idea, when u do could u please pass it on to me.

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In a long journey, even a matchstick is heavy...

Sure, will do.

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

hello michaelw13

i m currently doing my third year in b com informatics ,so do you offer any vocational work or any type of formal training or any related experience ,willing to work for free

hi michaelw13, this year is my final year in unisa and i'm doing a national diploma in IT, i wish to find out more information from you if you offer any training to final students and what kind of skills and modules to you consider when taking students.

Im willing to learn more from the IT side.

We don't have any internships available at the moment.

> skills and modules to you consider when taking students.
As long as the degree is IT related we'll look at the application. If the degree is not IT related, the candidate needs to demonstrate they've been teaching themselves IT.

For some info on what I look for in candidates, check out http://www.michaelwilliams.co.za/advice-for-it-graduates/

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Business: Space For Africa
Blog: Programming, business etc

Hello again michaelw13

Since you put SAP/Oracle with Siebel then I guess my SAP/Oracle viewpoint might apply in places.

Judging from many of the responses - I don't think you will have a lack of interest - but the job does need the right kind of person

Most of these jobs will be in the corporate world, so if a prospective applicant wants to spend life with unkempt hair, jeans, barefoot, be loud and opinionated and swivel between colleagues in their chair then I would be enclined to say it not for them.

Sounds school-marmish I know but one must realise one is representing a brand and a company and the decision-makers in prospective client companies want you to WORK on their sites. They paying big money and they want the job done - they're not interested in "independent flair" and know-it-alls that run around trying to change the world.

Sounds very stereotyped but once a SAP/Oracle/Siebel Consultant has done their "time" and earned their stripes - it won't take long to be noticed in your respective fraternity and the job/contract offers will (in my experience) never fail to turn up at your door.

If what I’ve said is a turn off – then maybe the “purist” route is the way to go – more chance of being yourself and changing the world, less chance of a BMW and a penthouse.

I know this doesn’t anwer your question about how to sell the concept but it is useful for people to know where they might be headed.

michaelw13 Wrote:
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> What do you think the best way to pitch a position
> like this to experienced programmers is? It’s a
> bit of a shift from coding all day, but I’m
> hoping to identify elements that are appealing.
> What would tempt you to switch from coding all
> day?
>

I've been through the evolution of 1st being employed to turn out code, later systems analysis, and today I consult on a blend of technical, architectural, process, governance - I still do a little bit of coding as I like to do some of the deep dive data analysis myself.

My views as follows...

The move into CRM analyst gives the programmer entry into the mechanics of business. Programmers may develop a sense of business throughout their careers as they implement functionality that enables business requirements - but being in a role that actually requires you to understand the business you;re in and how to implement using the off-the-shelf framework capability (e.g. Siebel) ultimately forces the change. In this position the programmer will have an opportunity to see how money flows through the organization, gain a genuine understanding of how simple work-flow gaps leaves customers with the wrong services, incorrect billing, etc. i.e. its not the stupid end-users anymore but something that was overlooked in the requirements and then the implementation.

This type of career move has the following positive outcomes

1. improved business acumen - not just the words but their actual meaning
2. deeper understanding of business operations, and business processes
3. deeper understanding of user behaviour and its effects of business operations
4. gain experience in workflow practices and understand how these support complex business processes
5. technical consultant
6. lead designer
7. lead architect - CRM is typically interfaced into other systems and as such forces the programmer to think beyond just the code
8. more valuable asset - I can get other programmers, I cannot easily find someone who genuinely bridges the gap between business and IT
9. internal customer facing experience, negotiations
10. planning , complex and long delivery roadmap - i.e. again about the bigger picture

Negative elements for such a move
1. sense of loss of technical capability, superiority
2. may not have the personality profile to lead team and/or interface with users, business owners, etc
3. higher responsibility but not necessarily equal move in salary (more responsibility but not equivalent step up in salary)

Ultimately it's about the individual in question and not every experienced programmer can or even should become a analyst, architect etc...

Man.. you have a big head.

I disagree completely that you become a more valuable asset. You are just playing a softer role.

And the hubris and condescension that fills your posturing disgusts me.
Comments like this will only make experienced and competent programmers want to make sure they never have to sit next to you or have anything to do with you.

 
  ,= ,-_-. =.
 ((_/)o o(\_))
  `-'(. .)`-'
      \_/

http://ilanpillemer.com
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

a bit condescending in tone maybe but actually very well put – I agree mostly.

I would say my knowledge of how business works has definitely improved as an Oracle E-business Suite consultant – business speak to a pure coder is like being exposed to a foreign language - you hear the terminology often enough and then you find the Business Times starts making sense to you, where as previously just a good bin liner.

I'm working on a project currently with a pure coder of more years work experience than myself and I can see the difference in our abilities to grasp business concepts.

ilanpillemer – don’t run other peoples responses into the ground – counter it – we’d like to hear your opinion – its good business practice

To Michelle

Do u have any advice on how to enterthe ERP/SAP envrionment I have found it difficult for the pat 5 years to go into this field
1. Most Companies want people with SAP Certifications

@ ronniesmith:

I work in the IT Dept of an org that uses various SAP modules (I myself don't work on SAP).

SAP certification is very expensive and I only know of one person who actually paid for it themselves. This person was on contract for other IT work at our org, knew that a permanent basis admin position was coming up, went on the SAP course and then got the job with the org's expectation that they would then pass the exam.

As far as I know most of the rest of the team became SAP certified by being business area experts (e.g. HR, Quality, Finance, SD, PM, etc.) and then being sent on the relevant SAP course (paid for by the org that they worked for at that time). Quite a lot of the work, if not all of it, requires Business/Systems Analyst skills & other general IT skills/knowledge in addition to SAP knowledge and business area expertise.

In a few cases junior staff were given development positions after a major restructuring created new permanent positions, and they were sent on SAP courses before being business area experts (e.g. Quality and PM) or even BAs. One was a programmer (e.g. in vb) originally hired as a developer and he applied for the ABAP position when it became available and got it and was then sent on the relevant SAP course. All of this was on condition that they passed the exams and completed x number of years of service in return for the investment in their training.

So you could target orgs that use SAP, and try to get a foot in the door by getting hired in IT in a position other than as a SAP BA, or in another area of the business (I've never seen a networking type migrate to SAP). This would allow you to prove yourself to the org, get business experience and perhaps have an 'internal candidate' advantage when positions become available. Ensure the org sends their staff on and pays for the SAP courses.